Instruments of Worship
The Instruments of Worship Podcast, hosted by Casey Rinkenberger, is dedicated to encouraging and equipping classical musicians to lift high the name of Jesus with their instruments and their lives. Tune in every Monday for a new episode!
Instruments of Worship
Music Expresses Something Deep In the Heart of Man with Gary Rhodes | Ep. 8
Have you ever thought of why God created music or how we can worship Him while we play classical music? Gary Rhodes covers all of these philosophical questions and more from a retired worship minister's point of view. Gary has had feet in both the classical and sacred music worlds for much of his life, so you will not want to miss my engaging conversation with him!
Discussion Questions -- Try reflecting on your own or with a group:)
- Why did God create music?
- What does it say about the character of God that He chose to gift us with music?
- Why is it important to seek excellence in our playing, but dangerous to pursue perfectionism? What is the difference between the two?
- How can I greater engage my heart in worship while I play? How can I greater engage my heart in worship as I live life this week?
- Am I a part of a Biblically sound church family? If not, what steps might I take to invest in a local church?
- May God desire me to use my musical gifts to worship Him at church?
Thanks so much for listening! Make sure to check back every Monday for a new episode!
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Hi, friends. My name is Casey Rinkenberger, and I am so excited to welcome you to the Instruments of Worship podcast. This is a podcast dedicated to encouraging and equipping classical musicians to lift high the name of Jesus with their instruments, but also their lives. Today, we have the special privilege of getting to have a conversation with Mr. Gary Rhodes. Gary is located in Waco, Texas, so I got to know him and his wife very well during my time there. The interesting story of I met Gary is that he actually emailed me on my way to Texas to move down to Baylor for the first time. He had emailed me to see if I would want to join the orchestra at their church. And at the time I got back to him and said, thank you so much for the offer. I'd be happy to check your church out, but I want to find my home church before deciding where I'm going to get plugged in and play on the worship team for. And he completely understood and even met the extra mile to ask me about my home church from Illinois. and did some research and gave me other suggestions of churches in Waco. He just went the extra mile before I had even met him. And come to find out, I visited his church and ended up loving it and calling it my church home during my time in Waco. And it was such a blessing to me and the church family I had and still do have there. Being a part of the worship team at First Woodway Baptist Church in Waco had such an impact on my time at Baylor. And I don't want to spoil too much for what their worship looked like, but it was a a really special opportunity for me and something that I still miss to this day. I got to know Gary's wife, Karen, and she was somewhat of a mentor to me my senior year, especially preparing for marriage. And Gary ended up marrying my husband, Quinn, and I this summer here in Illinois. So that goes to show the relationship that we have grown with him and his family. We're so thankful to have Gary on the show today. He has a fascinating story and he's such a well-rounded musician. He's a composer, an amazing arranger, a retired worship leader, and a fantastic trumpet player. I know you will love my conversation with Gary. Let's get into it. an overview from when you were young to even retirement now.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, okay. Well, you know, I was thinking about that, and man, there are a lot of chapters of my life. It's amazing to look back on God's hand in my life. I was raised in a godly family. We had eight kids in our family. My mom was a classically trained pianist, and she taught us all piano. I studied piano from kindergarten through third grade. In third grade, I started playing trumpet. I think in fourth grade, my mom approached our trumpet teacher, director of the bands, for teaching me. And he said, well, I don't know. Gary's really having some problems. She goes, oh, he'll do better this year. He's got his front teeth. And so anyway, he became my trumpet teacher, and he was a wonderful Christian man. In fact, when I was in junior high school, he would take me and some others, and we would go play in churches. He would take these Gabrielli quintets and we would go play in these very resonant churches and that's when i first learned to transpose too because they didn't have orchestrations back then so we would use a regular hymnal and we'd have to transpose it up a step And then eventually he had me playing in the high school stage band when I was in ninth grade. Ninth grade was junior high for us. And then he had me, if they were doing a musical in the high school, like Andy Get Your Gun, he would play first chair, I would play second chair. So I got a lot of experience that way. And then also in ninth grade, I was in high school all-state band and orchestra. And I still remember just the things we played from I know I told you Capriccio Español, Rimsky-Korsakov, and then Alan Hovhannes' Mysterious Mountain, and a Prokofiev piece with choir, I think it was Entry into Skov. But I remember those just very fondly and just the experience of it all. When I was a sophomore in high school, we lived up in New Jersey at that time. My dad was a chemical engineer for Exxon, moved, would go into New York City. But I can remember my mom just out of the blue said, well, Houston has a really great symphony orchestra. And I was going, so we're moving there, you know, and so we ended up moving to Houston. Shortly after that, my mom took me in and had me. kind of auditioned to be taught by the principal trumpet player of the houston symphony and he he graciously said he would teach me so he was my teacher uh during this time also in Kind of, you'll see, my whole background developed a love for all kinds of music, classical, Broadway, pop, you name it. Not certain, I mean, not rap or heavy metal or anything like that. But I can remember my family, at one point, we were in a singing group together. And my oldest brother played sax. I had another brother play guitar. I played trumpet and a little bit of keyboard. Had a sister that played keyboard. Had a sister that played drums. Another brother played bass and another brother just sang. And we all sang and played. And in that group, I learned a lot about pacing because my mom would have me put the order of programs together. I learned about arranging because I began to arrange for that group. And I also learned about directing because even though I was third oldest, for some reason, it fell to me to run rehearsals. And so I learned. a lot about that and then while we were down in houston i mean we played uh not a lot about that but we were able to earn enough money to put each of us through college and so that was a good thing but in addition to that i played in the high school bands and that kind of thing and then finally we went to uh we went to college my first year i went to the university of houston because we had some outstanding contracts with my family group that we had to do. And I transferred to Baylor the very next year. And I loved being at Baylor. I had a lot of people that I knew. And even when I was at University of Houston, we had some great Christian people that I was a commuter and I would have my quiet time out in the parking lot. And then at lunchtime, a bunch of us would bring our Bibles. And while we were eating lunch, we would share verses that were very special to us and these were all people in the music school and so anyway came to Baylor had a big support group of people that I went to church with and we encourage one another in the Lord. I eventually, I guess in my junior and senior year, I was co-principal in my junior year and principal for the wind ensemble and Baylor Symphony. And then I also played in the Waco Symphony with my teacher. And so those were wonderful experiences as well. Let me backtrack just a little bit here.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:With my trumpet teacher back in New Jersey. And when I was in ninth grade, he had me go attend a summer music camp in Pennsylvania. It was called Shecky Music Camp and it was C-S-E-H-Y was how you spell it. But it was there that I received the Lord. Even though I grew up in church and that kind of thing, the counselor of our dorm one night shared how to receive Christ and just led us in prayer. And that's when I prayed to receive Christ.
SPEAKER_03:At
SPEAKER_01:that time in my life, I didn't have a whole lot of discipleship. So several years later, when I was in Houston and attending a Bible study there, I really began to be discipled and I'd get together with some guys and we would each memorize a chapter of the Bible and be accountable to one another to recite it back. Or we would pray together and we would just share
SPEAKER_02:different things.
SPEAKER_01:But I really began to grow in a big way there in Houston. By the time I went to Baylor, I really felt like I was very grounded. Even I had been a counselor in a youth camp called Super Summer. And that's when I first began to lead in worship. That's the first time I ever would lead in worship was that super summer. And that led to other things where when I was at Baylor, BSU, the Baptist Student Union was really big on campus at Baylor at that time. They had Bible studies on every floor of every dorm. And I got involved with them and I ended up getting on their executive council for fine arts. And we would have auditions and we would send out ensembles, instrumental and vocal all over the state of Texas. Wow. Churches. And so we had a lot of kids and then we combine all those kids and we did a musical called Celebrate Life at a
SPEAKER_03:church.
UNKNOWN:Wow.
SPEAKER_01:there on campus, actually at Seventh and James Church. And so I was involved in that. And I also got involved in my own church. And at one point in my own church, a bunch of us who were in wind ensemble and Baylor Symphony went to this church. And we had some really good players, but we never played in church. And we began to pray about it. So we approached our music minister and asked him if we could form an orchestra. And he said, sure, go ahead. And so we formed this orchestra. And at that time, all they had orchestrated was a hymnal. So we had a hymnal, but we would also, like say, I would come up with an idea for something for Offitory or Prelude or something like that. And they didn't have the software at that point. So we had to write it by hand. But I would write it Saturday night. And we would go in the copy machine and make copies of all the instrumental parts and then hand it out Sunday morning, rehearse it and do it.
SPEAKER_02:It
SPEAKER_01:was very fast, you know, and then there would be other things where the music minister would have an anthem that he would want orchestrated and we would orchestrate it. We would do it with our group. So that was very fresh and rewarding. All that the Lord did there.
SPEAKER_00:Can I ask you, did you do trumpet performance then at Baylor?
SPEAKER_01:I was a music theory major.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:I loved playing trumpet. But while I was with our family group, one time for about eight weeks straight, we were an opening act for Anne Margaret.
SPEAKER_03:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:And we were doing shows, two shows every night. And at one point, we were in a dry climate, and I split my lip right here. Oh. And I had to keep on playing on it. And so I got an injury to where it healed over, but there was this pocket right there to where if I played too much, it would still open up.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, man.
SPEAKER_01:It continues through to Baylor. So at Baylor, when I would have rehearsals for one ensemble three times a week and Baylor Symphony three times a week, by the time I finished all those rehearsals, and they were a couple hours each, my lip was so... used at that point that for my lesson, I'd go into a practice room and I would just finger through and listen in my head of what it was going to sound like. And so I wouldn't actually play it, but I would listen out of finger. And I, I got quite good at it doing that, but that really let me know that I was not going to be a professional trumpet player.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. When that happened, was that kind of a game changer for you? Did you want to do trumpet performance? Was that something that you, were you a believer at that point? Did you trust the Lord with his plan for you? I was a
SPEAKER_01:believer and we would pray before every show that we did and everything. And I wasn't sure that I really wanted to be a trumpeter anyway for
SPEAKER_02:my
SPEAKER_01:profession. I knew some guys that they just could not put their trumpet down. I had really started to enjoy I really believe that God takes everything that you've learned and to this point in your life, what he's going to lead you to do in the future. And even though I didn't go into trumpet playing, I know that as I graduated from Baylor, at first I was going to be going to graduate school and finish my graduate degree. And I was a graduate assistant. I taught music theory to freshmen. But everything was history. It was history of music theory, history of orchestration, all of that. And during that time, Kurt Kaiser had a musical he had written called Miracle on the Brazos. And his orchestrator, Bill Purcell, who taught orchestration at Belmont University, was in town. And we met together. And he committed to a summer of teaching me three times a week. And I would pay him the same money that I was doing graduate school. And he was going to give me an hour lesson Monday, Wednesday, Friday. But he usually gave me five-hour lessons.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, wow.
SPEAKER_01:Just really poor. into my life. So when I got back to Waco, I ended up getting a job at Word as an editor. And after about a year or so, I became the creative director of choral music. So anything, musicals for adults, youth, or children, collections, anthems, anything in that was under my area. I ended up working with writers, arrangers, producing things in the studio. And that was really life to me. Working with those people and doing that. I learned it was kind of like a graduate school for me without going to university because I would work with certain writer, arranger for this project and produce it. And then I'd work with a different set and a different And I think in my mind, boy, I like how they did that, or I would never do that. So while we were at Word, Word moved to Dallas. And at first, we were going to move to Dallas. Word had created an accounting position for my wife up there. But as we went up there looking for homes and that kind of thing, but during that time, God began to work in my life. And I had never thought I would be a worship pastor at a church. He began to call on and to be a worship pastor. And just to let you know, my wife, Karen, her dad had been one of the co-ministers in a church of Christ growing up. And he had had some bad experiences with that. So when we got married, Karen said, I'll follow you anywhere. Just don't work at a church. So when God began to speak to me about that, In my mind, I was thinking, God, you're going to have to tell her first. I'm not going to say a word. And so we would be taking walks and talking about the future. And all of a sudden she brought it up and thought, Do you think maybe we ought to consider this?
SPEAKER_03:And
SPEAKER_01:I said, well, yeah, God's been speaking to me too. And so we began to pray about it. We laid some things before the Lord about it. And he just continued at every turn to confirm it, that that was the way to go. And so we didn't make the move with word to Dallas. We stayed in Waco. And another good thing is that we expressed to the church that a big part of my ministry I felt like was writing and arranging, things like that. And they gave me their blessing to be able to continue that. You know, a lot of music ministers at that time would have two weeks for revival. And that meant that they could go to another church and lead in revival or something
SPEAKER_02:like
SPEAKER_01:that. Well, I used those weeks for recordings. I would usually record for a couple of weeks. One musical would take right around one week.
SPEAKER_03:We
SPEAKER_01:would go in there, we'd record the orchestra in a day and a half for the whole musical, 10 hours of orchestra. Then we would have a couple of days of Of all the vocals, we would record 12 vocalists three times, and sometimes we'd add a church choir onto that. And then we'd add children's choir, narrators, soloists, and then finally we would have three days to mix it. Wow. It was very intense, but it was a lot of fun. But anyway, I ended up at a church setting, and it turned out to be wonderful for me because with my background, I knew a lot of instrumentalists. I knew a lot of vocalists. And so things began to flourish in that way for me. And God, in a creative way, he met me at every turn. I mean, my love for all different kinds of music, I was able to do that and pray for each week what direction he'd have us go. And I had a lot of freedom in that way. And I had really desired to be able to produce recordings, that kind of thing. And they're always able to do musicals like that. And also we actually did some praise recordings for the church to be able to listen to at home to where when they, we really wanted them to be able to worship at home during the week to where when we got together on Sundays, it would be an overflow of their week.
SPEAKER_00:So
SPEAKER_01:anyway.
SPEAKER_00:That's so cool that you didn't have to give up one love, you know, to pursue what the Lord was calling you to. So can you kind of explain then when you got to First Woodway or your other church too what did that worship look like i know that there was orchestra choir and a worship band which for me when i came to texas was unheard of and i think today At least where I'm from, that's just so other world almost. It's not common. And so what was it like for you? And can you kind of just explain what that looked like?
SPEAKER_01:Sure. Just talking about, say, First Woodway, I always have felt like within a church, has so many resources and it's up to the worship pastor to seek those out. So I know when I first came to First Woodway, they were using maybe nine instrumentalists every once in a while, not as much as I would want to. And I called a meeting encouraging anybody that played instruments to come and meet in the choir room. So anyway, they all came and, uh, well, it was, it was an interesting showing, you know, it was kind of a, not ready for prime time group, you know? And so, Hey, where do I go from here? And I started thinking, uh, out of the box a little bit. And fortunately, Baylor had this program that could help students with a little bit of a scholarship. And I used that and I reached out. to the teachers and to students and uh and slowly began to build an orchestra uh and i think after about a semester or two uh word got out that that we knew what we were doing i guess and some were blessed in what they did and so we started increasingly i had one trombone player that was playing with us and he was dating this girl that was another Casey Hoffmeier that was Mia Orozco in El Kelso. But she wrote me and asked me if I had a spot available. And I kind of scoped her out on YouTube and saw that she had won fiddling competitions and was concertmaster of the Baylor Orchestra. And so I said, I bet we could find a spot for you. But we slowly, we started getting some excellent musicians there. We already had a great choir. We had a children's choir, and I believed in multi-generational worship.
SPEAKER_02:I
SPEAKER_01:really wanted to regularly use the children. I wanted to regularly use all different age groups. I wanted to vary what we did with the choir where sometimes we might do a high church choir anthem. Sometimes we might do some solos with the choir. Sometimes it'd be an ensemble with the choir. And so I began to seek those out and I would look for orchestrations. And when I would get somebody, especially talented, like somebody like you, that you're so talented. I would look for things that they could be able to express their gift in worship. I especially loved when I would see something like that, an arrangement or orchestration. And then sometimes for prayer time, I would write things just to use for that. And so those, for me, it was a real life-giving, And I would love to vary it. Like sometimes we had found out about a guy up in Colorado Springs that wrote Chicago style horn section arrangements for church. I approached him and I bought a lot of his arrangements. And then we kind of augmented and used that as a template to write more. And so maybe every six weeks I would get a horn section together and we'd do something like that. And sometimes we would just do acoustic guitar, djembe, and the cello or a violin. And so I would like to vary it. Sometimes we would use acoustic orchestra with no rhythm section.
SPEAKER_02:And
SPEAKER_01:then a lot of times, as you know, we would use rhythm section with the orchestra, which was very contemporary, but it sounded wonderful, I
SPEAKER_03:think.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:and so we that's kind of what it would look like we would try to vary it uh accordingly to and and even within one service um we might do something very contemporary a couple of courses but then we would go into a hymn that would be very traditional uh we might modulate on the last stanza i might get my trumpet and play a descant and i would look at the organist and say Go ahead and give it to me, you know, let her play big and along with the orchestra and I would love those moments, even with a choir desk can't throw.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. What do you think the impact of all that variety had maybe on like a congregation.
SPEAKER_01:Well, people were very supportive. I think that worship music, and of course, we can talk about worship in a little bit because it's more of a lifestyle. It's not just music. But the worship music that would happen, a lot of times people might come into church closed to what the preacher might have to say.
SPEAKER_02:But
SPEAKER_01:the music would... somehow opened their heart and grabbed their heart. And I can remember people telling me that they just cried through the service. And I could relate. I mean, there were times when I would cry just at the Lord's goodness and how wonderful He was. I can remember a Dennis Jernigan song we did one time after the birth of our son, Chris. And after Chris was born, I know that John 3.16 would never be the same to me.
SPEAKER_03:Thinking
SPEAKER_01:that God gave his only son. Well, this particular song we were doing was based on a scripture out of Zephaniah about God singing over us as children. And it's a Dennis Jernigan song called When the Night is Falling. And the chorus goes, how I love you, child. I love you. How I love you, child. I love you. And my mother-in-law was holding Christopher, just a little baby out in the congregation. And as we started singing that song, she came up on stage and gave him into my arms.
SPEAKER_03:Oh,
SPEAKER_01:I couldn't sing anymore. I just sat there crying. But, um, but anyway, things like that were just, um, You know, the Lord did that over and over again. I mean, we were doing a musical and Michael W. Smith had done a Christmas song called No Eye Had Seen. And it had a beautiful melody to it.
SPEAKER_02:Well,
SPEAKER_01:we used that melody and that song as a pullout, just a short snippet of it in an Easter musical. And then we brought back that melody when Christ was crucified. So while that music was going, you could hear the nails. being hammered. And it was just, it made it that much more meaningful.
SPEAKER_02:But
SPEAKER_01:anyway, I do believe that God used and continues to use worship to impact people in a, in a very deep way. And I, For those of us that are believers, yes, it's a celebration of what God has been doing all week long in our lives to people that are finding their way back to the Lord or maybe have a hardened heart or something like that. And they come into that situation where there's a fervent group of people worshiping and all that's going on. You can't help but just be pulled on in your heart. So it's a wonderful thing.
SPEAKER_00:yeah can you speak to maybe the classical musician who attends a church but maybe isn't using their musical gifts what would you say to them you know as part of maybe the worship or or something like that there's a hesitancy to join in in that way
SPEAKER_01:yeah i you know i i do think you know worship again is is a lifestyle it's an all of life uh um worshiping God for who he is and what he's done in our lives. So even as a classical musician, God has given you the gift that you have. And so when you play your instrument, whether you're playing in a concert at your school or professionally, you can lay your gift before him as an offering to him. And I know that you can also, God's given you such a gift that Using it in church is even that much more of a life-giving aspect. I have found that students and others that give their gifts and use them in church are blessed more than they bless even. They do it and they just come away and they just thought, wow, why didn't I do this before? My encouragement would be pray to the Lord. and just say, Lord, would you have me use my gift in my church? And if so, prompt my heart, open up an opportunity for me and let me respond to it. And I think if they're sensitive to the Lord in that way, he will open a door for them to be able to participate and they will be glad that they did.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, for sure. I know that I appreciate what you said. When you play, sometimes it's more blessing to you than maybe even everybody else.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah. So I'm curious, though, then there's in the Psalms, it talks about play skillfully unto the Lord, you know, that sort of thing, almost like you described. It's almost like laying it at his feet as an offering. What would you say, whether church music or classical music? What is the importance of excellence, though, in music? your music in either of those settings, really.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Well, I know in Colossians, it talks about whatever you do in word or deed. do unto the Lord or do in the name of the Lord. And, and that to me, I just think that whatever you do in life, you want to do it dedicated to him and, and with excellence. And that's not to say that you want to be focused on perfectionism
SPEAKER_02:because that
SPEAKER_01:would be in any musician that can be a downfall as well and be something where you never have any peace in your life because you're always You're always being super critical, but that doesn't mean that you want to just settle. You know, there's a real balance between really focusing on the Lord and having excellence. And you want to have both of those. Those are so important. It's from the heart that we do all that we do. And so an offering to God that isn't from the heart, he's not going to receive.
SPEAKER_02:And
SPEAKER_01:so that's where we kind of draw the line. But I think as musicians, and especially classical musicians, you've been trained in such a high level that if you can find others that have that same high level of training with a heart for the Lord, wow. What potential? And that's something that I've been able to experience. And, you know, I even know when I would do musicals, when I first would go to conduct a studio group, I was kind of intimidated. I was thinking, great, I'm going to go conduct this studio group. And they're all like ringers and all this stuff.
SPEAKER_02:And,
SPEAKER_01:you know, even in the violin section, when we'd hand out music, all the violins would cost millions of dollars, you know. I'd go out there and I would just ask the Lord be with me and he'd give me his grace and his confidence, you know, to where I would go out there and I would, I would purposely make sure and affirm and recognize their gifts because I would just say, I can't tell you how, what a privilege it is to be with you guys today and hear you play. And that's how I felt in church, you know, too. I felt so privileged because they were such a great group of people. And the ones that not only invested in playing in church, but just invested in getting involved were the ones that I felt like came back and back and back, you know, after school was over and I would see them again. But I do think that you can have excellence in worship without focusing on totally on perfectionism. And I think to have that as you focus on offering it to the Lord, you can't help but give your best.
SPEAKER_00:I know that your church, First Woodway Baptist, is a fairly large church. And it sounds like I didn't realize that you had really sought out a lot of the people maybe that ended up becoming regulars on the worship team and such. But for a smaller church, how would you maybe encourage them? What do they do when they have less resources available, even just personnel? Yeah,
SPEAKER_01:I would say, again, you begin with prayer and just say, Lord, help me put together the right group. And it's so important. And they may be right under your nose, and they may not. It may take some time. I
SPEAKER_00:know when I first came to First World Way, they had a great heritage.
UNKNOWN:But when I first came, I'm trying to think.
SPEAKER_01:I wasn't sure about the sound guy. And so I asked Bob Johns, the youth guy, I said, who's the best, who's the best ears in the church? And he's the guy that works with the youth. So anyway, I went and had lunch with him and I said, I know the youth really love you, but we need you in big church, you know? And
SPEAKER_00:anyway,
SPEAKER_01:that was JR. And so JR started coming over and mixing for us. Another thing I, um, uh, I had, uh, um, a pianist that was needing to take a break. And so I wasn't sure who was going to take a break. And then right then there was a guy that came over from my former church and he was willing to play. His name was Charlie Bayless. And Charlie is an engineering professor, but he can play anything. So he started playing piano for us. In rehearsal, I had a bass player who was a band director who told me he couldn't come to rehearsals. I said, really? And he said, yeah, I can't come to rehearsal. I'll be there Sunday morning. And I said, well, you do know that at some point I'll find someone who's coming to rehearsals. And at that point you'll be the sub. He said, yeah, I understand. And I said, two weeks later, we had somebody that came to rehearsals. And so we didn't have anybody on electric guitar at that time. We had an acoustic guitar player, really good art. But I found out, through Bob Johns that a former guy that had played for Dutton, the people that would sub for David, a group that would sub for David Crowder when he was out of town, was moving back to Waco. And this guy was an incredible electric player. And I went out to lunch with him and I said, I don't know where you're going to end up at church, but we really need you. If you could ever find it in your heart to come to our church, that was Shane Wilson.
SPEAKER_02:And
SPEAKER_01:Shane could play anything in any key. And then there was another guy looking for a new church home. His name was Mason Hayes. And Mason ended up playing with us. It took some time, but we were able to find those people. And they were all more important than anything. You want both, but you really want people that are servant-hearted,
SPEAKER_02:that
SPEAKER_01:serve one another, encourage one another, don't have a big ego about it. And every one of those people. is that way. But I think praying through that and just continuing to network with people in your church, you may find out about somebody that you never know was there or never knew was there. And I know when I first started at my first church, I had a Van Cliburn finalist as pianist. Excellent. Wow. To the end of the service, If the preacher had preached on something, I wanted to do that chorus. I said, let's play so-and-so in this key. And he'd go, do you got the music? I said, no. And he goes, can't do it. Oh, okay. And then I'd be with another song and I'd look at him, I'd give him the thumbs up, like, let's modulate. And he'd look at me and go, like, not unless you got the music, you know? He went on to law school. And when he left, I thought, oh no, our music sucks. is going to be so much worse. Well, I didn't realize it, but there was this girl that had not only been one of the music students of the year at Baylor, but she had toured with continentals, could play classical music, could play chord charts, could modulate, play by ear. She was right under my nose, but she was a little bit timid about playing. So I asked her to play, not, not to give me a commitment, but just to play. And then about a year and a half later, I said, well, do you want to make a commitment now? You know, so it worked out that way, but you never know who's going to be there. And, and you may have to really work at it because the, they, may be hard to find. But I would encourage them that if they find somebody that's really talented in a certain area, to really utilize them and to really see how God can shine through them.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah. It sounds like, of course be prayerful, but Gary, you've shown it through example of even how you reached out to me. And I explained that in the intro of just, it's okay to pursue some people and to, you know, through relationship, just encourage them. Sometimes people need an ask before they're willing to approach. And I love just what you're kind of describing of when you've got just a heart of worship and lots of experience in music or you've done it for a while, just the unlimited potential for good and for worship. And so I'm curious that that heart of worship, that side of things, can you just, we're going to get kind of philosophical. Can you kind of explain what is behind that heart of worship? How through your life have you seen or how would you encourage someone maybe who's genuinely struggling to have a heart of worship? How would you encourage them to cultivate that?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I think nothing can replace what you do every day. And so if you're wanting to cultivate a heart of worship, come before the Lord every day. I know a lot of people use ACTS, A-C-T-S where you spend some time expressing adoration, that's your A. C is confession, where you confess your sin before the Lord and ask for forgiveness. T is expressing thanksgiving to him for it. And then S is supplication, where you may be praying for somebody or praying for yourself. But that's a good model to follow in a daily way to the Lord. But I think as you pray, as you spend time in God's word, as you memorize God's word, in your heart, you're going to see that fruit rise up within you. You know, I remember this old preacher, S.M. Lockridge, and he does this thing, I think it's on YouTube, but he's talking about the Lord. He spends maybe five minutes just describing all the attributes of God and how wonderful God is. And he's just full of life, as he tells it. And as he gets, he's getting worked up about it. And then he just says, I wish I could describe him to you. He's already done it for five minutes, but he just can't even scratch the surface. And then he says, do you know him? And he's talking about personal relationship. And that's so important as well, just to have that personal relationship with the Lord. And so I know if as a classical musician, you know, if you haven't prayed to receive Christ, that's the first step. And as you pray to receive Christ, then come before him every day. and read the Bible every day and pray every day and get involved with a church, a Bible-believing church that has other believers that will encourage you in the Lord. And when you're going through a hard time, they're reaching out to you and trying to support you. And when they are, you're doing the same for them. But that's how I would really encourage them. I know I've read your relationship with God is the single most important thing in your life. It is. The man that wrote When I Survey the Wondrous Cross, that wonderful hymn, Isaac Watts, he wrote, the great God values not the service of men if the heart be not in it. He has no regard for outward forms of worship if there's no inward adoration. So in classical music, it's all about your heart. And you know what? You can tell when somebody is playing something when it just comes from their heart. It shines a little bit brighter in the way that they play. And so I recognize that in you, Casey, and I recognize that in certain people as they play. You know, I would also encourage people to get involved in a Bible study. That's a place where you can find fellowship and also you can grow in the Lord. I know currently my wife and I are involved in a Bible study fellowship. And we're going through the book of Revelation
SPEAKER_02:and
SPEAKER_01:we're listening to our teachers every week. And that's been a good thing. But I think if you are in a small group like that in a Bible study, you'll benefit a lot.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. The other thing I would say, just hearing you talk, something I feel like that I've learned too, when you said that either knowing Jesus or loving Jesus is the single most important part of your life. I think that's something that for classical musicians can be super convicting because we spend so much time with our instruments. We spend so much time cultivating and trying to be better and playing more advanced music. And it can just be so easy to make either your instrument or even yourself just seem like the most important thing in the world. And so I think worship, it's, I would almost say impossible to worship if our self is up here and our view of God is down here. You know, if we see him small and we see us big, then it's going to be really hard to worship. But if it's the other way around, if I decrease and he increases, I feel like that's when sometimes that heart can shine through more. I don't know if you have any thoughts on that.
SPEAKER_01:I agree. And I think that one of the keys there is that you find your identity in Christ.
SPEAKER_02:We
SPEAKER_01:had a preacher one time and he said, you are a minister and a missionary disguised as a professional musician or a doctor or a lawyer. And he would say that almost at the end of every message. He'd say, remember, you are a minister and a missionary disguised. And then we'd all fill in the blank. And when you think about your identity being in Christ, you might have an audition. And you didn't do the best on the audition. Well, if you just think you're defined by that audition, oh my goodness, what room for depression to set in. If your identity is in Christ and you're his child and you know all that he has said about you and his great love for you, then that's your identity. And then you're expressing yourself and offering yourself to the Lord. And you're going to do your best, but it's not going to be the end of the world if you don't measure up on one day and you do great the other day. It's the same if you do the best and you win the competition or something like that. Still, your identity is in Christ. And keep that in mind because it keeps you humble as well.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. So kind of changing gears now slightly. I'm just curious. We talked a little bit about the power of worship and the power of music, though. I'd love for you to speak on of why do you even think God created music because it has so much power? What do you think is behind all of that?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I know that music expresses something deep in the heart of man. And just like he's put something... inside of each of us that longs for Him. And even when people don't know it, they're longing for a relationship with Christ and with God because that's what we were created for. We were created to worship God and to bring Him glory. Well, there's worship going on around the throne 24-7. And it's music. And God has given us music to express worship to him and to just let our spirit soar in many ways. And it does. I mean, it brings, you listen to, even in a secular sense, whether you're listening to classical music or you might be listening to movie score. I remember recently they did some movie score stuff at the Waco Symphony. And... with Rudd was playing the Apollo theme. And he played it. And I told him, I said, it was beautiful. He goes, I can't play that without crying. And it's that kind of thing. It brings out the greatest emotion from weeping to shouting of joy to despair. It just can bring out every emotion that we we have and expresses it. And so I think many times too, when we're praying in church, we might be trying to play something softly. And sometimes that's expressing somebody's prayer just as they listen and it lifts their heart to prayer. But, you know, I've never thought about that one question about why did God create music? I've accepted that he did and been thankful that he did because it's such a wonderful, wonderful thing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think so. Do you have any thoughts on what it says about God and his character that he saw the need for it?
SPEAKER_01:Well, he, he definitely in his character has always, all of those attributes i mean he has great joy in us he has great joy in his creation he he grieves over our sin i think he has is tender towards us he's our
SPEAKER_02:shepherd
SPEAKER_01:uh he's our our shield uh he's our comfort All those I've seen expressed in music. And so in his attribute of who he is, you know, in the Old Testament, many times God would meet a person according to their need and they would give God a name, whether it would be healer, whether it would be, you know, strong tower. But God always provided. But I think that it does say, something about him, you can turn back to him in many of those moments. And it makes you thankful to the Lord. I
SPEAKER_00:think what you're describing of all those attributes, some of that can be heard or felt through music. And it almost shows that God wants to be known by us. He wants to have relationship with us. And what a special avenue to use music through all of that and so just how special it is to be a musician and get to share that with people and um i think it's it's a question that has probably many answers but it's it's fun for me to think about just the depth that there is to music and the role that we get to play as musicians as a part of that so
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that is wonderful. And it's wonderful to contemplate things like that, because I think as you contemplate it, and you're making me contemplate it right now, but it deepens your relationship with the Lord. I mean, those are things, you know, in the Bible, in the Psalms, you read something and then it says, and that means think on these things. And that's one of those think on these things moments is as you do, it just leads you to thankfulness. It leads you to adoration to him and to worship.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I think one thing we could know for certain is that God does love music and he loves was willing to share it with us and i'm excited for the music bowl here in heaven for sure
SPEAKER_02:amen amen
SPEAKER_00:yeah so to wrap up gary i'm just curious if you have any sort of word of encouragement or advice that you would give to a christian classical musician
SPEAKER_01:well as i i think i said it before a little bit but um if you're a classical musician you are among the few. I mean, you are gifted. You are so gifted that you have been able to play with an elite group of musicians. And I know already you have been able to just experience the joy of playing with an excellent group, with an excellent conductor, hopefully, and with people around you that are like-minded in wanting to be excellent in everything they do. And so I would just say again that we were all created to worship God and to give him glory. And you can be the most excellent musician in the world, but without God, you won't be fulfilled to the fullest. You'll always have that in your heart, just longing for something more. And it's almost like if you're out in the hot, son and you're playing some sport and you just come in and you drink some water, but you're still thirsty and you can't drink anymore, but you're still thirsty. Well, that's how it is. You just cannot fulfill that. You can't quench that thirst until you've given it all to the Lord. And once you have given your gift that you have to the Lord, there's that much more life that's much more joy and you feel you feel i'm finally doing what i was created to do and so i think that's a a big joy of knowing him walking with him and still being able to play your classical music and and and participate in that and again when you play make it as an offering that you're laying before the Lord. And it'll take on a new dimension as you're playing.
SPEAKER_00:For sure. Thank you, Gary. And last, I'm just curious. I know you're in retirement now, but does that give you more time to listen to anything? Are you listening to anything fun or new right now that you think anyone else should check out?
SPEAKER_01:Are you talking about music?
SPEAKER_00:Yes, music.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. gosh
SPEAKER_00:or any is there a podcast or anything else that you listen to
SPEAKER_01:well of course we're listening to our bsf directors but
SPEAKER_00:did you know i do bsf too
SPEAKER_01:huh
SPEAKER_00:did you know i do b oh no i did it
SPEAKER_01:i didn't see you doing revelation right now
SPEAKER_00:oh yeah
SPEAKER_01:oh wow
SPEAKER_00:that's awesome we meet on tuesday mornings
SPEAKER_01:but we have to get facetime and discuss our answers you know
SPEAKER_00:yes
SPEAKER_01:so um I like to listen to movie scores in addition to classical music because it inspires me. I love certain themes and I can hear certain themes used with different musical styles within a movie. It probably drives my wife crazy, but I'll point it out. I said, do you hear the way they're doing it now? It's a different thing. Just a case in there's that movie, Remember the Titans, that's about a football team and that kind of thing. Well, they have this theme where sometimes it's very, very tender, like at the end when they're at this funeral and it's just very, very tender way they present it. Well, at the moment where they're about to win the football game, they're also play that, but it's, I mean, gangbusters and they're playing this theme and it's just a tough, different treatment. So it's from tender to all out. Just want to go, you know, and I, that's something that, um, uh, especially when I was writing musicals, I'd want to have those kinds of moments, but I do, I listened to a lot of movie scores. Uh, I do have, and I'm still sorting through in my office. Uh, my mom had a huge collection. of classical CDs. And she gifted them all to me along with her grand piano. And so I just need to, I need to catalog them and I need to find a way to play them because we don't have a CD player currently. I have such fond memories of being able to not only play those, but also even in music history, we learned so much music and all. And now I have more time to enjoy it. I know back then I had spent so much time in my life deciphering
SPEAKER_00:yeah totally yeah and for movie scores talk about another aspect of music just storytelling and bringing your imagination and like you said music being close to the heart for sure
SPEAKER_01:yeah you know more and more music as a classical musician uh just in our culture today You're probably going to do a couple of concerts with movie scores, you know, whether it's John Williams or whoever it is.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, we just did. Did I tell you we did Encanto?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, wow.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, which is a, it's a Disney and it's. Yeah,
SPEAKER_01:it's animated, right?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. But it, you know, the movie plays on top and we play the film score. So it's fun. Right. Thanks so much, Gary, for being able to just share your wisdom today. Man, learned so much from you. And I know that I'm so grateful that you're here and that other people are just going to be encouraged by hearing your faithfulness to leading people in worship and your very well-rounded career in music. So thanks so much for coming on today.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you.
SPEAKER_00:Thanks so much for listening to this podcast today. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. If you think of someone you might be encouraged by this podcast, please feel free to send it to them and make sure to download and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts.