Instruments of Worship
The Instruments of Worship Podcast, hosted by Casey Rinkenberger, is dedicated to encouraging and equipping classical musicians to lift high the name of Jesus with their instruments and their lives. Tune in every Monday for a new episode!
Instruments of Worship
Living For Christ in the Classical Music World with Courtney Huffman Frye | Ep. 34
As Christians in the classical music world, being a light for Jesus in a secular profession can feel challenging and confusing at times. That’s why I think you’ll love my conversation with Courtney Huffman Frye! You’ll come away encouraged by Scripture and equipped by her story to step boldly into the places God has called you.
Courtney is not only an accomplished soprano, but also a biblical counselor at her church. You won’t want to miss hearing from my sister in Christ, Courtney Huffman Frye!
If you haven't heard, the Instruments of Worship Podcast is now offering two brand-new music tote bags!! These bags are practical, beautiful, and designed to be a daily reminder of worship. Check them out at this link and hear more about the heart behind them in episode 33 here!
Also, would you kindly take a few minutes to fill out this anonymous survey about the Instruments of Worship Podcast? Your feedback would help me so much as I continue shaping the show. Thank you!
Discussion Questions - Try discussing on your own or with a friend in our Facebook Discussion Group
- What encouraged you most from my conversation with Courtney?
- Could the Lord be asking you to be more open handed with your musical identity?
- How can John 3:30 help us to teach and perform differently?
- Where could the Paul Tripp quote, “Need people less, love people more,” be lived out in our lives as Christian classical musicians?
- Are there ways you may be seeking commendation from the world when the reality is that the world rejected Jesus and it will also reject us to some extent?
- Are you making it your goal to please the Lord as it says in 2 Corinthians 5:9? Or is your goal to please the world? How might that quickly become dangerous?
- How does remembering that God’s perspective is eternal encourage you today?
- If you look at the things you prioritize in your schedule, does it honor God? Are you abiding in Christ and pouring into time with Him before anything else?
Thanks so much for listening! Make sure to check back every Monday for a new episode!
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Hi friends, my name is Casey Rinkenberger, and I am so excited to welcome you to the Instruments of Worship Podcast. This is a podcast dedicated to encouraging and equipping classical musicians to look out in the name of Jesus with their instruments, but also their lives. Today we have the immense privilege to talk to my new friend, Courtney Huffman Fride. I first ran into her at the Victoria Block Festival since we were both performance there. And then I very unexpectedly ran into her at our church very shortly after that. I could not help but just run up to Courtney in excitement after finding out that such excellent musician was also labor and much less attended to the church excited. And I had the great joy of getting to connect with her more this summer during the conception of Bruce Musical, if you remember me talking about that a lot this summer. Oh my goodness. Courtney brought the character Bruce to Life in a stunning way. And I'm so thankful that I had the opportunity to share this page with her. Having won first place at the Nets 2008 Artist Award competition and then debuting at Cardiff Hall, Courtney is an incredible vocalist, but also one of the most humble, warm, wise in solo for Jesus people. Not only has the Lord used her as an incredible performer and university teacher in the classical music world, but now he is using her to pour into people as a biblical counselor at our church. I could not be more excited for my conversation with Courtney today, and I hope that you will join me in being a part of it. If you think you know somebody who might be encouraged by this podcast, please send it to them and be sure to download, follow, and subscribe wherever you are listening. Let's get into today's episode of the Instruments of Worship Podcast and my conversation with Courtney Huffman Fry. All right, well, hi Courtney. Thank you so much for being willing to come on the show and share some of your story today. Thank you so much for having me, Casey. Yes, this is gonna be so fun. First, I would just love if you could give a quick overview of who you are and what you do.
SPEAKER_00:All right. My name is Courtney Huffman Fry, and um I would say first and foremost, I'm a daughter of the Most High King. Um that's my uh first identity, of course. And then secondly, I am a wife to my husband Jared, of I think we're at 18 years now. Getting to a point where you kind of stopped counting. Sorry. It's wonderful, but it's like, eh, you know. And then um I'm also a mother to uh Ellery and Waylon. Ellery is 12 and Waylon is nine, almost 10. I am a biblical counselor and also a student in that um as well. And I am a professional classical singer. So um I think that's uh there's a lot of things, but I think there's major ones.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, and we'll get more into that later, but also teaching at university right now.
SPEAKER_00:That's right, thank you. Um I am also a uh uh instructor, yes, at Bradley University.
SPEAKER_02:Awesome, that's great. So if you don't mind, just take us back and share some of your backstory, including maybe how you came to the Lord, how you got started in the music world, just anything that you want to share. Yep.
SPEAKER_00:So um let's see here. I was born um in San Diego, California, in a Christian home by the grace of God. Uh came to a belief in Jesus Christ at a young age. Um, remember with my dad, I think I was around five at the time when he shared the gospel, and I said that I believed. And I would say um it's been a definite journey of sanctification since then. I would say that um from that very young age that it was I knew I wanted to be a performer. I was trying to make a name for myself. I was extremely dramatic, um young child, um, and you know, being the third of four, you gotta make yourself known, you know. Um I uh grew up wanting to perform and loving to perform. But it really wasn't until we moved to central Oregon when I was in middle school, and it was in the middle of middle school, and it was it was a really rough time. I mean, I think middle school is a hard time for everybody, am I right? Um but also moving in the middle of it was really tough. And I when we moved up to Central Oregon, I kind of got into the wrong crowd and um was involved in um, you know, alcohol and um some things like that that I shouldn't have been. And it wasn't until my freshman year in high school that I um started taking choir. And my choir teacher, it's funny, he is like a second dad to me. And so he um he was the one that actually recommended that I start taking voice lessons, and so I was like, oh, okay, I guess I'll start taking voice lessons, you know. Um and at first it was with a teacher that was more in musical theater, and then my choir teacher found this teacher, her name is Eileen, and she is like my second mom. And he said, he said, I really think you need to switch teachers, and I was like, okay. So all right, you know. Um, so I switched teachers, and by junior year, she was the one that introduced me to opera, and I just fell in love with it. I fell in love with the challenge of it, that it's like the hardest thing as a singer that you can do. Um I fell in love with the drama. I mean, opera is so over the top in every way. Um and I just fell in love with the fact that in in classical music and classical singing, it's it's the voice is the first and foremost, not necessarily the acting, and that's the ability to use the voice to communicate such deep emotions, even if you don't know what the words mean, you know? Yeah. Um which as a singer you have to know what the words mean, but um I just mean as a listener, you know, you can just be listening to it and brought to tears, you know, without necessarily knowing exactly what it means. But so I fell in love with all of it. And by junior year, I was like, I'm gonna be an opera singer. So I did the whole audition circuit and um applied. I wanted to be in the university setting, I didn't want to be in a conservatory, I just wanted a little bit more um broader education. And so um I visited University of Illinois in Champaign, not that far. Um, and my voice teacher actually had a connection there um with the head of the music department at the time, and I got some scholarship money from it and ended up um going to University of Illinois from my undergrad in vocal performance. And I'm gonna backtrack just a little bit. But when we moved up to Oregon, in Sacramento, we were super involved in a church in my younger elementary years. And then when we moved up to Oregon, my mom found a pastor in Texas that she really um the teaching, he was a scholar and he was a great teacher. And so we ended up listening to sermons, but not really being in a church community in Oregon. And uh that really, that was really hard. Um, I think that contributed some of my having a struggle with um getting in the wrong crowd and you know, trying to, you know, find my identity and all of that. And so when I went to school at Illinois, University of Illinois, I uh the Lord, you know, he's so good, but he just led me to really desire to have a community there. And so I got involved with InnerVarsity, Christian Fellowship on campus. And um, I, you know, being a musician, as you know, Casey, it's your schedule is crazy. And so I was a very good freshman year of being super involved in InnerVarsity, but at the end of freshman year, I went to um uh a gathering, and that's actually where I met my husband. He's a he was an aerospace engineer at the U of I. So I'm not really sure how how else um opera singer and an aerospace engineer would have met. Totally. You know, you just don't, you don't have that many classes with aerospace engineers. Um so we met the end of my freshman year, and it was his freshman year as well. And at the time I was so focused on my career. I mean, I was so in myself, I was so selfish. I mean, just the Lord is so gracious. Um, but I wanted nothing to do with being in a relationship, you know, because I knew as soon as I'm in a relationship, I'm not gonna be able to do what I want to do, you know?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So um I kind of fought it, and then by middle of our sophomore year, it was there was no fighting it. We we were boyfriend and girlfriend, and it all went to pop from there. No, I'm just kidding. No, it's been amazing. God is so good. Um, and his ways are so much higher than our ways, you know, and his plans are so much better than our plans. Um, but it's just I have to laugh about it now, you know, and Jared will tell you she was all into her career, you know. Um so um, yeah, so we met and started dating, and then um that I would say was the beginning of when the Lord was like, uh Courtney, you're no longer gonna be living for yourself, you know. Um we knew from a couple months in that um this was it. And so I when we graduated, Jared got a job in San Diego with Raytheon, they're a defense uh contractor for the government. And I still was like wanting to be a professional um singer, opera singer, and so I wanted to get my master's in vocal performance, and so we um I was able to get my master's at USC, University of Southern California in LA. So we were able to be not too far away from each other, a couple hours. Um and we decided to wait to get married until I was done with my master's, which would be two years. So that was it was a wonderful experience at USC. I had a lot of great opportunities. Some of my fondest memories was actually going to um Aspen Music Festival in the summers and being able to perform there and be just around amazing musicians and see amazing performances and be in Aspen. You know, at the U of I I had a ton of opportunities there too, and both places I had great role, you know, able to sing a ton of opera roles and um just grow, and it was fantastic. Um we were married shortly after I graduated. And then um, you know, as a singer, um, at the time there was kind of, I mean, two to three different routes that you could go if you wanted to be a professional opera singer. And one of them is um going into a young artist program in an opera house and a major opera house. And it kind of it's like more schooling, more training. Um, and another way path was going more from the um professional singing in smaller professional companies and kind of working your way up that way. And then there's also like the European route. A lot of singers, professional singers, classical, you know, opera singers will go move over to Europe and um really work their way into the Europe scene. But the Europe scene tends to be separated. Now it's a little, I think things have changed quite a bit, but the Europe scene at the time tended to be very separated from the American scene. So if you made your way in Europe, it was pretty difficult to eventually transition back over to the US, if that makes sense. So Jared and I we didn't want to. Um we just uh we didn't, you know, we were a team now. And my husband would always say, like, Cordy, marriage is about compromise. Like, you know, it's not all about you, it's not all about him, you know. Uh ideally it's about the Lord, yes, us, you know, worshiping him and you know, following him. Um, and so uh we just decided that Europe wasn't gonna be an option for us. And I didn't want to continue, I didn't want to go into a big opera house because that would have probably had meant that I would have had to leave. And I'm not sure for Jared and I what that would have looked like with distance and grade. So um I decided to go the smaller opera company route, and so I had some opportunities in Southern California. I was performing, some smaller opera companies there. I started up a um uh voice studio and teaching mostly elementary school and high school level kids. Um we lived in North County, San Diego, and it was nice to be close to family, but I feel like as a young couple, it's just hard to find, you know, your togetherness um and so and your unit and what works for you guys. So um Jared was not happy at Raytheon with what he was doing, and I was like, I I'm ready to go to the East Coast. Yes, because the West Coast for you know, in in classical music, there is a lot of music on the West Coast coast, but a lot of it is film uh around the film industry, and um I wasn't so much into that. Um, so I wanted to get over cl to the east coast. Um, I'd never lived over there, and I was like, we gotta try it, you know. We didn't have any family, we knew nobody, but um but we were young and we were both like, yeah, let's do it, you know. So Jared uh he got a position with Raytheon in Andover, Massachusetts, and we moved to um Andover, which is about 30 minutes north of Boston. We I had some great opportunities in um Boston. I sang a lot of early music. Boston uh Boston's known for its Baroque early music. So I sang with Boston Baroque and um did some smaller opera companies there, and then I was close enough to where I could drive to New York City and I did auditions and smaller opera companies there. And um, and then it was also right before the move, I did that um NATS National Association of Teachers of Singing um competition. They have a national competition called the Artist Awards, and um I actually ended up winning it, which was blew my mind. It was I just I didn't I'm not I wasn't a competition winner. Like there are with with singing voices, there are like the singing, the singers that like have these like competition voices. And I wasn't so much one of those. I have a lighter um a not a huge voice. Um and I tend to I really loved like recital work and new music and working living composers and Baroque music. I love like the brainy side of classical music, you know. Um, and so I this was but for this competition you had to put on a full recital and um and the the the prize was that you got to um perform a full recital at Carnegie Hall. So that was I ended up winning the whole thing and got to have that opportunity, which was right when we pretty much moved to Massachusetts. Um and that was just obviously a once-in-a-lifetime, you know, getting to perform at Carnegie Hall.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, something special.
SPEAKER_00:I'd love to do it again, like now that I'm older and like at the time, I was like so nervous and so. I mean, it's just you know, you're young and you know, yeah. Um but it was a blast, and my family, everybody came and from all over the country, and they were all so proud. I mean, it's just you know, so fun. Um so lots of fond memories of that. But that was also kind of part of that when we were on the East Coast time, yeah. Um and then um I would say that was there in um Massachusetts that we um really got to start as a togetherness, like really start walking with the Lord um together. And so we found a church, a very small little New England church of like a hundred people and um got involved and made amazing friends who were in the same similar walk of life, and um I really do feel like it was there that the Lord began um kind of asking me to let go of my identity in my singing because it was always Courtney, the singer. Um and I mean I remember it was a few months, honestly, where I felt like I was mourning the death of my of a part of myself um because the Lord was asking me to let go of this thing that I had just like clung to for so long, you know, yeah, and was such a big part of my identity. I felt like he was like, Corney, you've got to get to a place with this where it's open hands and not my will but yours be done, Lord, you know. This is what you have for me, great. But if you have something else, I know it's gonna be good, you know. And but it was so like it was so hard. Um, but so good. And I did get to a place I felt like where I was like, okay, Lord, whatever you have for me and whatever that means, um, now I'm still singing. Yes, yeah, yeah, yes, it doesn't mean that it wasn't singing, but but it did, it totally changed obviously like my view of singing, and it was a slow progression, but I feel like that was like the beginning of me really, really starting to hand over my life um to him and fully living for him. Um and I ended up we bought a house and I ended up getting um pregnant with our daughter, Ellery. Had Ellery, and it was actually right when I had Ellery when Jared made a job switch, he um ended up start he his dad started a fertilizer company in central Illinois here in Dunlap. And um he went on um to um to be with his dad in that company, so it was a very big kind of career change for him. And then I um kind of it fell on my lap, but this opportunity to teach at Gordon College, right when Ellery was born. And Gordon College is a Christian college in um Massachusetts. Up until this point, I was like Courtney the performer, you know. I'm gonna perform, you know. I think so many of us like start out uh that way, you know. Um, and um, and it was teaching was just kind of on the side, I just did it because I kind of had to, you know. Um, but when I started this, it was an adjunct, so it wasn't full-time. I was just teaching a couple days a week. I didn't want to work full-time. Um, I wanted um to be a mom first and foremost, but I still wanted to sing and and use the gifts God had given me for his glory and whatever that looked like. And so I started teaching at Gordon and I just loved it. I loved working with young adults, and um, I mean, it's such a great age to work, you know. They they for singers, uh it's you really need to know your body well um uh to do what we do because obviously our body is our instrument. And with young people, it is tricky because it's it's just difficult to talk about the body and what you're feeling and what's going on, and they're looking at you like you have three eyes, and you know, like um, and so it's I just really loved working with young adults um and in that college level who were excited to learn, and you know, at this time of life that's so exciting, and all these things going on, and so um I enjoyed that, and um it was also right at that time that um I did that for a year or two. I had um a miscarriage, unfortunately, in between my daughter Ellery and my son Waylon, and it was right about that time that my mom was also diagnosed with Parkinson's with dementia, and she was 56, so she was very young, and my mom was like the rock of our family. She was I mean, this woman was a force, you know. Her family members called her camp director Jennifer, you know, because she was on it, you know. Yes, always like even keel, like she was the non-emotional, the you know, it's okay, Court, it's gonna be fine, you know. Um, and so that just I felt like the rug had been obviously just pulled out from under me. That's when my anxiety, I started really struggling with anxiety. And I remember there was a performance at Gordon. Um, I was doing a bunch of um faculty recitals and whatnot, and I remember I didn't sleep for two weeks straight before one of my recitals. Yeah. Um and so I just got hit with this incredible anxiety. Um and I think it was a culmination of things looking back on all of that, and then I ended up having my my son Weyland, he had um food issues, um acid reflux issues, was I was so anxious and worried about him, and the Lord was just kind of you know, he was taking away like all the strength of my flesh, you know, just little by little. And I just felt so broken and so weak and so I cannot do this, um, which is what I needed, you know. It was his grace to, I mean, I was so prideful and selfish and and just so I mean, looking back, I'm just it's hard, but I'm so thankful for it. Um, and so Jared and I decided after Wayland was born and and how much I was struggling with him, um, and that he was now working for the family business in central Illinois, that we decided that we it would be good for us to move um to central Illinois. And um, his mom is super grandma. Grandma is amazing. If you're listening to this, I love you, mom. Um but so we moved here, and she was such a huge help to me um through the kids' younger years and helped come alongside, and then Jared was here, he was close for work for him, which made sense, and um and his business, um, he was really able to start to grow the business and really invest in it. And then it was here that we also um started attending Summit Point Church, and that I mean, they oh man, the growth that Jared and I have been since attending Summit Point um has just been amazing. Um so it was also um I sought counseling. So I'm gonna I'm weaving everything kind of through here, but I sought counseling um when we um were attending Summit Point. Um as my mom was her, she was progressing more and more in her disease. And there were some things that was going on in my family, decisions that weren't being made that were really hard to deal with. And so I um was like, I I don't know, I don't know how to handle this in a godly way. And so um I sought counseling through Summit Point, and that's when I met Jana. Jonna Harkness is um the lead pastor's wife, and she became kind of my mentor and counselor, and um and I just I got to see how the Lord in his word, how sufficient it is, and how I mean it's all we need for life and godliness, you know. Um and just was growing a ton, and that's when I started um advocating being an advocate at some point. If you go into counseling, we have people who come alongside and um are just there to love on you and support you, and so that's what I started out as. And then eventually Jana was like, Have you thought about being a counselor? And um, I was like, I actually have been thinking about it, and um, so decided to also go and get my master's in biblical counseling, um, and that's through Faith Bible Seminary in Lafayette. So I'm in the middle of that right now, and then um started um, let's see, it's been a year and a half that I have been on staff at some point as a counselor as well. So that started kind of the counseling side of things, and then in the meantime, seeing when I when I came um when we moved to Illinois, I land, I mean, it just landed in my lap, Bradley. There was a connection, it's I'm not even going gonna go into it, but I knew from the University of Illinois, a connection of mine from there, and she was like, You should teach at Bradley. And so when I when we moved, um I had an interview, and um the woman who was the adjunct, kind of an adjunct um voice instructor at Bradley at the time, she was having health problems, and so it actually, I mean, Lord's timing is perfect. Um so they needed somebody to come in and start kind of helping cover for her, and so um that ended up being me. And so I've been teaching at Bradley now for man, we've been here for seven, eight years. Um, I think it's eight actually now. And um I love it, been enjoying, still love working with college students, and um and then also singing. Uh man, I've been um mostly just locally now, right now. I sing with uh Peoria Bach Festival quite a bit. I still love Baroque. Baroque is my jam, so quite a bit of Baroque music and um the Peoria Municipal Band. I love singing with them in the summers. And um, and then I got, I know we're gonna talk more about Ruth, but I got Gets and Singy Ruth, and then um yeah, and then I um we'll talk more about this too, I know, but I started up um a house concert series in my home too. So yeah, but yeah, being um being a mom and a counselor and a singer and you know, just following the Lord. All the things. Wow, yeah, that I love that. That is such a I love it. All the things.
SPEAKER_01:All the things.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, well, I'm so thankful that the Lord relocated you guys back here and that you're getting to call Central Illinois home now. I just love hearing your story, Courtney, and thanks for sharing all of that. I would love to just go then kind of through some of those things that you said and ask maybe more pointed questions. Part of the reason why I started this podcast is just to encourage and equip, you know, other classical musicians who might feel like, man, how do I navigate living for the Lord in pretty much a very secular career, you know, uh the classical music world. And so if you don't mind, I would love to hear just maybe some of your experiences of being a Christian and how you've navigated that in the classical music world. But if you're okay, maybe starting with as a teacher and how the Lord has grown you in that and how you can be a Christian as a teacher, whether it's at the collegiate level or for people listening who might be private teachers or classroom teachers. But would love to hear from you about that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so I would say as a teacher, um in in the beginning when I first started teaching. It was very much about well, once again, much about me. It was it was, you know, me wanting to make like a good name for myself, you know, to to look good, to I mean, I of course, like when you're teaching, it's also about the the student, the person that you're um teaching, but I felt like it was the focus was more on um either myself or like wanting them to be a better singer, which is of course what you're trying to do. You're trying to teach them how to sing well and sing with good technique and to sing freely and and all of that is a huge part of it. You gotta that's part of the job. Um but I do feel like as I have grown, it's it's funny because um I wrote it down here, but I would say John 330 um has become kind of my mantra, and that's when John the Baptist is saying about Jesus, um, he must increase, but I must decrease. And so I feel like that's been the slow progression with my teaching, is it's become less and less about me or less and less about like the student. Um sometimes it's like we get so frustrated because the student isn't doing, you know, what we want them to do. Like you're not practicing, or you're not why can you not like get this like thing that I've told you a million times that I've tried to do, you know? Um and so and that can build like so much frustration, you know, because if the goal is simply that you want them to be like a better singer and are the best singer possible, if that's the only goal, then if that isn't getting achieved, there's like this frustration that is so, you know. Um and so I feel like it's become less and less about that, and more and more about how can I love this person well, how can I show them the love of Christ, right? How can I minister it to them? And um, you know that when you do one-on-one lessons, it is, I mean, I really do feel like I was counseling before I came, I became a technical counselor, you know. Um because you become so close with your students that you're teaching privately, you know. Um, so I was finding, I mean, I would have students come in who were, you know, contemplating suicide, whose, you know, gr grandma or mom or something just passed away. Who I mean, and singing is it's different. It there's a difference in singing because your instrument is your body, your voice is inside of you. You cannot separate. And I think as instrumental instrumentalists, you're this is what you're trying to achieve, right? Is like a oneness with your instrument, you know, and that it becomes like the voice of you and you're like speaking through it, you know what I mean? And as a singer, it's like you have no choice, that is what it is, you know? Yeah, so emotionally, spiritually, physically, everything affects your instrument. Yeah. You can't really separate the two. So I think, especially in singing, um, you become much like the the voice teacher, there's a huge part of it that becomes a counseling side of it. Um and so the more and more that I have been teaching, the more and more I realize that it's not about me.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um, it if if they improve, I mean, of course I want them to improve, like of course that's we're that's what we're working for for. But it becomes um Paul Tripp has this saying, need people less, love people more. And it becomes less about me needing them to be a certain way or to do a certain thing. And it becomes more about me just loving them and whatever they need, if they need me to speak an encouraging word for that day. Um, sometimes, you know, I need to put the fire under them and be like, girlfriend, you have got to work, you know. Yeah, yeah. Sometimes that's you know, there too. But it's like it's as if I'm abiding, right? It reminds me of John 15. If I'm abiding and I'm in the vine and I'm um abiding with Christ and spending my time daily with him, which is absolutely number one, and filled with his spirit and being empowered by his spirit, then um then that is gonna, he's gonna be working through me. And whatever is needed for that moment with that student is what's gonna come out, you know? Um, and so I would say that that's like the coolest thing. And and even being in a secular university, I don't think that this it really honestly, it really hasn't changed a whole lot. Now at Gordon, I could be much more like, okay, let's pray about this, you know, what you know, much I I because it's a Christian college, yes. But I do feel like um uh 1 Peter 3, 15 came to mind as I was thinking through this, that we even in a secular university, I still need to always be prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks for a reason for the hope that it is in me, and to do it with gentleness and respect, right? And I think that that is such a beautiful verse and such a beautiful reminder for us who are teaching that it doesn't matter if you're in a Christian school, a secular school, if you're teaching just a private studio, that you always need to be prepared to make a defense for anyone who asks. And students will ask me, I'm having trouble with anxiety. Um, I don't know how to, you know, handle this. I there's nothing wrong with me sharing my, you know, this is what helps me. Like this is how I think of it when I am, you know, performing. I know this may sound crazy, but I see the Lord and I see him like smiling and saying, That's my girl, I love you. You're my job, you know, and like and that is my focus, and I'm focused on like worshiping him and praising him and glorifying him, and then everything else like just fades in the background, you know, and focused on loving him and loving others, and how can I love the audience with you know this gift that he's given me, and and I can share that, and then they can look at me, you know, and be okay, this crazy lady, you know, and that's fine. Like, but like it's not like I'm not imposing it on them, I'm not forcing it on them, I'm just sharing with them, and that really truly has given me the peace in performing, and and and then I can say, and for you, I don't know what that necessarily looks like for you, but this is how for me, how I have to think of it, and how like you know, and this is my experience, and um, and so I think that that can always be shared, you know, and then they can or leave it if they don't it's like okay, well, you're crazy. I don't yep, okay, you know, and I realize that I'm not forced, you know what I mean? It's not a force, it's not a you have to do this, you have to, it's just a sharing, sharing your experience, sharing what the Lord is doing, sharing how you know the victory that he's given you, and then it's them, you know, and him. Yeah, obviously, I mean, first and foremost, he is the one that changes hearts, not us, you know. Um, so that's kind of been more of my experience. And then, you know, if there's a struggle, if a student has a struggle, uh there's nothing wrong with saying, Can I pray for you? Yeah, and then they can say no, and that's fine. Okay, no problem. Uh pray for you in my private time, you know what I mean? Yeah, like yeah, but but um it's this is a it's interesting, you know. We're talking about this, and um, after Charlie Kirk and everything, we live in a very interesting time, you know. John 15, 20, um, that came to mind that when Jesus said, A servant is not greater than his master, if they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. And um, I think it is it's a reminder that um the world rejected him and he was perfect. Yeah, I'm not perfect, I'm very far from it, you know. But we do have to keep that in mind that as believers and Christ followers, that the world rejected him, which means that it's gonna reject us to some extent, you know? Yeah, and and we battle up, we gear up, you know, we have the armor of God, and we we're warriors. This is a spiritual battle, you know. Yeah, but we live with the light and and and shine that light in the darkness, and it's not our job, like I said, to change hearts, and it's up to him. But you know, we live 2 Corinthians 5 9. We live to please him and to honor him, and um he is the one that we stand before at the end and make an account. So I think that is one of the biggest things that I've had to learn as a performer because it was so what are they gonna think of me? What I need to make them happy. I I'm a people pleaser, that's my personality type. Oh, it's a horrible one to be. Oh the Lord has done it's still a work in progress, okay? Absolutely. But it's always a struggle for me of what do they think? Are they gonna be upset with me? Um, is my voice gonna be good enough? Are they gonna love like me? You know what I mean? I can't I trying to impress. Um, and so um, but boy, has it is it such a burden and so freeing when you start to live less and less for this world and live more and more for him and his glory and knowing that his love doesn't depend on my performance, you know? Yeah, um, and um that I can just be what he has made me to be and share the gifts that he has given me, and people can take it or leave it. Yeah, and that's with our faith too. You know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_02:Yep, yep. Oh man, I just love so much of what you said. And I feel like the same could be said probably a lot for the performing world too.
SPEAKER_00:I don't know if you have anything extra to add there, but the performing world, that's been more of a that was that's been a harder, I think a harder journey for me because in the teaching world, you're in this place of like authority. Do you know do you know like you're you're older? So you have this like, you know, but in the performing world, it was you you're all in the same plane, or you're a lot of times you're younger than a lot of the people you're performing with. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, for sure. I think the performing world is it was harder for me. Um not so much now. It a lot has changed, but now I'm one of the old guys, you know. So I don't know. I feel like now I'm a lot of times older than the majority of the people on, you know, stage. So, you know, you hear this all the time as people get older, they like, eh, I don't care what anybody thinks, you know? Yes. It's great, yeah. It's a great praise the Lord that he grows us in that, you know?
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:Um, but I will say performing when you are trying to make like a career and make a name for yourself, and um it it is difficult, especially as a people-pleasing personality, because you want to get hired and you want so you want you'll you tend to be willing to do whatever it takes. I d I was not I was not great, I would say, always with that. Um in the singing world, I don't know if you encounter this as much in the instrument world. In the singing world, we have more of a um, and maybe you do actually because you're playing in the orchestra or you know, of an opera where something is taking place. Um, I was telling you, Casey, that I had an opera um that we did at USC that was um there were several um sexual acts that were um displayed on the stage throughout the whole thing. And um I mean, as a singer, you're like in it and you're having to like act it and do it. And so that's like, you know, or I had another, you know, small company opera where they wanted me to be naked on stage, you know? Okay.
SPEAKER_02:Oh my goodness.
SPEAKER_00:No, yeah, yeah, no. There's like so, and I was young and you're struggling, and what do I do? And you know, and I'm at school, you know, one of these it was at school, and so then well shoot, these are my like professors and people, you know what I mean? Um, and I I will say that I don't feel like I really lived for the Lord in his glory um at that time. And so it was a struggle, and I feel like I I I don't think if there's anything I I didn't do anything majorly that I regret or shouldn't have, but I feel like I could have made a better stand in a loving way, but just been like, I'm sorry, I'm not gonna audition for that opera. Yeah way, that's not God glorifying in one iota. So and and being okay with that, because knowing that the Lord, like, if if he wants me to be a you know, international professional opera singer, there's nothing anybody can do to stop that, you know? Yeah, and if he doesn't want it, then there's nothing I can do to make it happen. Exactly. So it's like, you know, um now I can say that, but when I was young, that is really hard when you're young, you know. So I think I think my advice would be abide in him, live with him, be in relationship with him every day. That is the most important thing, obviously. As you abide and as you're filled with his spirit and you're walking in the spirit, and you're walking in his truth and his word, and he's leading you and guiding you, and you're asking him to lead you, he's going to lead. He the Lord has to answer, right? The whole throughout the Bible, when we ask, he answers, okay? So he's going to lead. Um, and it's just like trusting that that he's gonna provide every step of the way, and it's like one little step at a time. It's not, it's I know it's hard. You want to think like a million steps ahead of time, right? Just today, what are you asking me to do? How how can I glorify you and please you in this circumstance? And he does, he provides the grace, his grace is sufficient to guide you, you know. And so that would be my my advice.
SPEAKER_02:Totally. And it's it's good encouragement that when you do pray, he listens and he hears, and that he is working, he has a great plan. And although it's hard to sometimes see it because it might be slower than we anticipate, or you know, it's it's we don't get to see how the the the story ends all the time, you know, and and how he leads through our whole lives in the midst of it. But um, just that encouragement that we can know for sure that he is working and to just be patient on that.
SPEAKER_00:So there's so many times, Casey, in the Bible. I can't even remember how many times it's wait on the Lord. Right. Wait on the Lord. We just did a series on waiting. Um, Mark Rogrup, I think it is, has a book on um waiting isn't a waste. It's called um, and it's beautiful, it's a great book. Um but um it's hard to remember that his the the God's perspective is eternal. Do you know what I mean? Right. So his like our timeline, we think like 40 years, you know, or even even one year is like this is ridiculous, like it's so long, you know. Um but in his perspective, in eternity eternally speaking, it's like not even a blink of an eye, you know what I mean? Right. So you're right, it is it's hard, so hard to have that eternal perspective.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. But knowing that he has an eternal perspective, we know that he works all things for the good, for the good of those who love him, and even when we can't see it, like we can just trust that eternal perspective that he gets to know, and we may not, you know, sometimes he might reveal that to us, but maybe, maybe not till we get to heaven. And so yeah, I'm encouraged by that too, Courtney. So, in terms of performing, I know that's a love of yours, but it maybe looks a little different in this season of life. So, can you share what maybe that looks like now? I know you've said the house concerts, or Ruth would just love to hear about that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so I I I guess I'll I'll start with Ruth. That was pre-house concerts. Dave, I I he I he would have to tell you how he got my name. He got my name from somebody. I don't know who. Um, but he just randomly emailed me out of nowhere. And Dave will tell you that he had and it he did this with each one of I think each one of us leads. And I know with me and Allison um who plays Naomi. And he emailed us out of nowhere, and um I received the email, and I at USC, uh I one of my favorite classes there was this class where we had uh student composers and student performers. So there were singers, musicians, uh, like um uh instrument, sorry, singer, singers are musicians, um instrumentalists, um, and uh all in this class together, and the composers would compose songs that it would incorporate some of the voices and instruments, and then we the singers and instrumentalists we would perform them. And it was so cool because you were like a part of this like creative process, you know. Um and I just loved it, and so I've always ever since then I've loved working with living composers, and what a dream as an um instrumentalist or a singer to work with a composer who is alive, you know, and that you like create this thing together. So yeah, um so I received the email and I was like, oh, this sounds awesome. Um and not only that, it's the story of Ruth. It's a Bible, you know. He's an amazing character. Like, who wouldn't want to play her, you know? Yeah, um, so I I I knew nothing. I knew nothing about Dave, I knew nothing about, you know, um the whole process, but I was like, this sounds amazing, let's do it. And um, so that's how we got involved together. And it's just it is, I know Casey, you had the opportunity of getting to um be a part of it this last summer too, with him right orchestrating it. The first performances were just with um piano, and um, but this last summer we got to sing it with the orchestra, and ugh, it's just there's nothing like it. The combination of the story and it being such a God-glorifying, I think Dave did a fantastic job at um keeping real to the very close to the biblical account, um, not taking a ton of artistic liberties. There's some, but he, you know, stayed true, pretty true to the biblical account, which is important for me. And you have, you know, uh the majority of the people who are involved are um fellow believers, and so it becomes like this big old worship time together, you know. Yeah. And then, but it's this high level of I mean, David is he's wonderful, he's an amazing composer. And um for Ruth, Ruth is extremely challenging vocally. Yeah, so it's not you think of musical. Oh yeah, you're gonna say, you know, you know, he has yeah, this wide range for a soprano, it's a very wide range, you know, that he uh puts me in, which is great. I love it, you know. But it's so it's also like so challenging um musically and vocally, and then the I mean, so many people in the audience are believers. So one of my um friends who um attends our church, she had said, she said, it it's like what heaven is gonna be, you know, like you just have all these, we're all coming from different churches and from um different walks in our faith and um different places, but we're all like worshiping and glorifying the Lord and telling this amazing story of redemption. And I mean, it's just the I told you I was like, it's such a high, but like it's it's like in every way. So I that was just every time, anytime he asks me if I want to do it, I'm like, yeah, sign me up. Yes, um, I keep telling him I'm getting too old though. Oh no. Play Ruth. Eventually I'm gonna have to play Naomi, but um, but I it's it's amazing. So I have thoroughly enjoyed that. I um I um like I said, continue with the Peoria Bach Festival and they're wonderful. Um I think the thing, even though I'm doing more um, you know, more performing in just the central Illinois region, I I just love working with great musicians. It doesn't matter where, it doesn't matter where you're at, you know? Um it's just such a joy. So that I love doing that. The Pure Municipal Band, um Dave Roman, I get to work with him every summer when I get to sing with the band, and the band's fantastic, they do a great job. And it's that's fun because you get to do like show tunes and yeah, because we do opera and you know, um, yeah. And so it's a fun like mix of things. And then um, yeah, my the house concerts. I had a dream that did you did you learn in um do you remember in school learning about the Schubertiads? Yeah, yeah, okay. I was gonna say, you music history, usually you kind of go through that and how Schubert like put on these like house concerts, you know, and um, and I was always like, that sounds amazing! Like, how much fun would that be having all these incredible musicians together performing in such an intimate setting? I've always loved chamber music, and um and I think that's part of why I've loved Baroque too, is it tends to be more intimate settings? And there's a lot on my plate right now. I'm still in school for biblical counseling and whatnot, so I have to keep all the you know irons in the fire and things going. But uh, but slowly I've been doing some house concerts, and what we do is we have people come and bring food, so we make it kind of like a blog book, and um, and then each one I've like worked with different musicians and just in the community, and so far it's just been like me and piano, but I have a dream, and Casey, we've talked about it of starting like putting together more um different uh ensembles. And um, I was a part of um a house concert series in Massachusetts um when we were there, and it was wonderful, and she did a great job of programming, and and so that was another like inspiration for me for it. Um, but yeah, my dream is to um to do that, and then people come and bring food, and we put on like a 45-minute to an hour concert, and then we um talk and hang out afterwards, and I get to choose who I get to work with and choose the music that I want to do, and and the audience is like people that I know or people that other people know, and um, and they're getting to hear things that they've never heard before and be exposed to music. So it's just yeah everything that I love and my dream is for that to continue. Um ramp up. I mean, I'm still in my taking care of kids years, so yes, that's uh you know, you know, there's a season for everything, but right, yeah, right.
SPEAKER_02:But so cool. I think of just something like that is such a wholesome experience just to, you know, share beauty into the world these days. Um I just think that's rare, you know, and to have that in an intimate setting with people and how no matter what your situation with music looks like, people could always take up, you know, their own house concerts and it doesn't have to be limited to just oh, where you can find work. You can you can make your own in that sort of way. So yeah, yeah, I think that's a great, great point. Okay, lastly, I would just love to hear a little bit more about you being a biblical counselor. It's so cool to me that you are just so sold out for the Lord and He's using you there, but such an excellent musician too, and how those things don't have to be excluded from one another. And so for somebody who maybe doesn't know, could you just share what biblical counseling is?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Um so I was thinking you you posed this question to me in advance, and I was thinking, oh man, how do you how do you say it in a concise way? Brad Bigney, he's a biblical counselor, and he says he kind of condenses it down to using God's word to help real people with real problems. So that's kind of like if we're gonna kind of dumb it down, you know. But it it is, it's it's ministering the word to people um who are struggling. And uh oftentimes it they're like really struggling or they're just asking for um guidance, you know, what does God's word say about this? How do I apply? I mean, you have a verse like love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and you have, you know, love your neighbor as yourself, but then it's like, okay, now but what about in this situation? Right. I don't know. I could give you a million, but you all we all have those situations that are like, uh, this is a little more complicated than what does that really look like? So biblical counseling is really taking God's word and ministering it in a real way to um uh help people in life, in real life, and what's going on and how we apply the word to these situations.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, that's awesome. And I know you've already shared kind of how you got into that. You were seeking counseling yourself first, and then the Lord went on to use that. But I do know from you that it is just a love of yours right now. And so could you share what you love about it? And then I think it's also so cool to think in your story, I assume this is probably something that you would have maybe never assumed you would have done. Like, was this a surprise to you? And just you know, want to share about that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I don't, I mean, you know me, I was Courtney the singer. Yeah, not Courtney the counselor. If anything, I needed to be counseled. So uh, but you know, the Lord, I mean, huh, you just you look at so many I mean uh all so many stories in the Bible, you know, Moses was a murderer, you know. Yeah, yeah, David was an adulteress, yeah. I mean, and a murderer too. I mean, there are just that many, he just uses people who who are so broken and so weak, and he does great things through them, and all we can do is give him the praise, right? Because it has nothing to do with us, which is amazing. So I would say my favorite thing about being a counselor is that um I get to have a front row seat to what the Lord does in people's lives, you know? And it it does, it feels that way. It feels like you're sitting in the front row and popcorn, just like this is awesome, you know. So um that's my favorite thing about it. Also, I get to the body of Christ is just beautiful, and um, especially in a church like Summit Point. We're we're a large church, but I think it it's such a beautiful way of connecting um on a deeper level with people and one-on-one, and especially in a large church, you know? So I also another thing that I love about it is I love the relationships. I'm so close with these women that I am walking through. And, you know, they're my fellow sisters in Christ, and that I get to come alongside and share the burden and um and grow with them. I mean, uh you being a teacher too, know that you don't just teach, you also learn as you learn from your students, you know. And the same thing goes in counseling. So much I'm learning so much and growing so much myself. So it's a two-way street, you know? Uh but yeah, just the sweet, sweet friendships, sweet um relationships, and um yeah, getting a front row seat to see what how God works in people's lives is awesome. Yeah, that is so cool. Thanks for sharing.
SPEAKER_02:Um, okay, so ra as we wrap up, you've shared about how you're a performer, you're a teacher, you're a biblical counselor, you're also in school for that. You're a wife, you're a mom, you have lots of plates spinning. And I know that a busy schedule has is not new, you know, to the musician, but could you just share how do you navigate your busy schedule and keeping the main things the main things and and then going down from there? What does that look like? And how might you encourage other musicians who might be struggling with the same thing?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I would say first and foremost, as I said before, that keeping um my relationship with the Lord number one and my time with him number one, um, you know, it is a a relationship. I know you know that, Casey. And a relationship takes time. Uh so that means I've got to be um uh with him and listening to him, which for us, you know, is through um his word. And so being in his word and hearing what he has to say to me through it and um talking to him um through prayer and um and you know, and just more and more that becoming like part of my day, uh like throughout the whole day and not just one thing, you know. Um so that's definitely number one. When you have that priority and you're abiding, then I feel like everything it kind of seeps down, you know, into everything. Um I would say number two is um being married and a wife. I have learned the hard way, but I never say yes to anything without talking to Jared first. I know it's so hard. This is so hard for me. I am such a uh, I don't know if you could tell, but I'm a very independent and I'm gonna do it woman, you know. Yes. Oh, Eve, you know, from the garden from the very beginning. It's been a struggle. Um but it I have found it like as I have gotten older, that it is so beautiful, it is the Lord's protection on me. So it's so interesting because in the beginning it was like, oh, submit, oh, you know, horrible escort, oh, you know, I don't know, maybe you don't feel that way, but um, but for me, it was really the Lord. Oh man, he had to do a number omni. Um but I I just see more and more that he is so my husband, I he is so wise, and he is the realist, I am the optimist. And um I mean I would be so over my head and like going crazy without him, you know. Um, so he keeps me grounded, and it is just it is the Lord's protection um on me, and he's able to see things. Jared is so great. So when we talk through everything, you know, I run everything by him. Obviously, we have to be on the same page. You cannot in a marriage be not on the same page, it does that does not work. So just being together and on the same, you know, it's a united front. So we are united in this. Um, and then and Jared's able to say to me, you know, Court, no, that's not gonna work.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Or I might be like, oh, come on, I really wanted to, you know, and might mope around for a little bit, you know, and then be like, yeah, you're right. But he's so good at helping me to like just know like what our what as a family, because we're a united front, what we can handle, what we can, what is wise, what isn't wise in this season, you know. Um, and it's just so liberating because it's not all on me that I can say, honey, what do you think? What, you know, so obviously with everything that I do, performing, teaching, um, biblical counseling, um, I've none of it. I don't do any of it unless he and I are both on the same page um and united in it. And then, you know, with our kids, it's the same too. It's they've got to be, you know, we're a unit, we're a family, so they have to be in it too. So it's kind of talking to them, okay, kids, like they know when I'm going into a class. So I I get kind of these breaks in between classes, which is great. But when I go into an eight-week super intense class, I'm, you know, they're 12 and 9, so they're old enough now. But I can say, like, okay, I have for the next eight weeks, mom's in a very intense class, you know. And they know, like, okay, for the next eight weeks. It's not like we're not gonna see our mom, but they know that, like, okay, mom's gotta, she's has work that she's gotta do. And and so we work together on like, okay, you guys, this time I can't like watch a movie with, you know, everybody, like Jared dad's gonna be watching a movie, and mom's gotta work on her, you know, class for a couple hours, or you know what I mean? So it's we're all in it together, and I'm communicating with them too, and making sure that like, okay, is there anything? Are you guys struggling? Do you need me for things? So it's being in communication. And then, you know, I think a lot of it too is trial and error. You get you say yes, and then you realize, wow, that was way too much.
unknown:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:And everybody is uh usually on the same page, you know, like and kids are all like, this is way too much, you know.
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:Um, and so then you okay, let's all come back together and we're gonna re-look at this. And okay, so from now on, we're not gonna, you know, so it is there's trial and error that has come with it too. Um, and then for me also, these are all like everything has a season. So my classes are usually eight, either eight or sixteen weeks long. So when I'm in class, it's like I know, okay, um, I'm I can't be performing a ton when I'm in an eight-week class. They're very intense. It's just not gonna happen in order for me to also be a good wife and a good mother, and of course, my relationship with the Lord, number one. So it's always kind of like, okay, I'm not maybe not singing as much in this season, and now I'm doing more, you know, classwork, student work, and then maybe I'm uh counseling more in this season and then not doing as much. So it kind of does that make sense, totally, it's not always the same amount of everything, it kind of ebbs and flows a bit. And I thank the Lord for that.
SPEAKER_02:Totally, totally. That is awesome. Yeah, okay. Last thing would just be how would you encourage a Christian classical musician just trying to navigate the music world in a way that honors the Lord and just worships him through it?
SPEAKER_01:Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00:So I think I would go back to that 2 Corinthians 5 9, which says, Therefore, we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to him. So my words of encouragement would be to, you know, do everything for the glory of God, honoring him, loving him, serving him, following him, abiding in him, and what he's calling you to do. And I it really is just a daily, okay, Lord, how can I honor you today in this and where you have me? You know, this could be it could be, you know, waitressing and then also, you know, gigging on the side, you know, it could be, I mean, it it looks so different, you know, as a musician. And and there are seasons in life and it ebbs and it changes, but um, I feel like the one thing that's constant that doesn't change is um our serving of him and glorifying him. What's gonna how can I honor you and serve you today, Lord, and please you and what you have me doing. And, you know, if it's performing, then I'm gonna perform for you and glorify you and worship you and the gifts that you've given me. Um if it's teaching, then I'm gonna um use these gifts of teaching to, you know, impart my knowledge on them, but also like minister to them and look for or open doors to share you with them, you know. It could be a mole so many different things, you know, as we have so many different roles being a mom and um being a wife or just being a child or friend, all of that. I feel like it's that's the underlying if you have that underlying goal in it all, then um you can't go wrong.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Courtney. That was amazing. And I love just the the verse also of the he must increase, we must decrease. I feel like that's a huge thing for musicians who sometimes love to be the center of attention, love to perform. But um, so thank you for sharing so much wisdom today and making time too in in the midst of your crazy season.
SPEAKER_00:So thank you so much, Courtney. I'm happy to do it, and thank you so much for having me on. It's been an honor and a joy, Casey.
SPEAKER_02:Well, thank you so much for spending part of your day with me today. I hope that you enjoyed that episode as much as I did. It was such a pleasure to talk to Courtney. She has so much wisdom on how we can navigate the classical music world as Christians. So please check out the description below for discussion questions that you can reflect on by yourself. We actually have a Facebook page that you can do to talk about these discussion questions if we answer them and we could have a big person and I think please feel free to leave us a five star review if you like this episode and I like to read this.